Former Lt. Gov. Dale Caldwell spoke with Rob Nelson of NJ PBS News about the findings of the state investigation that led to his resignation from office a week ago, as well as his suspension from pastoral duties. The probe alleged inappropriate behavior and misconduct by Caldwell while on the job. Caldwell disputes the findings.
Read the full transcript
Rob Nelson: (01:38)
Good evening. I’m Rob Nelson, and welcome to NJ PBS News. Tonight, we begin with former Lieutenant Governor Dale Caldwell. Just one week ago, Caldwell was the second highest-ranking official in New Jersey. Then, an independent investigation substantiated a finding of sexual harassment and two violations of state ethics rules. Governor Mikie Sherrill called on him to step down, and then he later resigned.
Caldwell denies the findings and says the investigation was deeply flawed. Now, he’s also been suspended from his pastoral duties while his church reviews a complaint based on concerns raised in that very same report. Tonight, Caldwell is here to respond to those allegations, the growing fallout from all of this, and questions about what comes next. Thank you, sir, for being here.
Dale Caldwell: (02:13)
It is my honor to be here.
Rob Nelson: (02:13)
I know it has not been an easy few days for lots of reasons. Let me start with the latest information, because we learned more just yesterday about the situation involving the church. For folks who don’t know, you were senior pastor at a Methodist church in Plainfield.
Dale Caldwell: (02:35)
Yes.
Rob Nelson: (02:35)
And that church now has suspended you from those duties. They’re doing an investigation, and they say they received a complaint based on concerns raised in the report. I want your general reaction to the suspension, and what does that mean, concerns raised in the report? What detail do you know about what the church is looking into?
Dale Caldwell: (02:55)
The bishop asked the district superintendent to send a letter based on the report, but really based on the findings of the report. That’s often standard practice. What’s not standard practice is normally that’s not public. And so if the bishop released it or other things, it’s just an internal investigation, it’s not guilt. It basically says it gives you this time for discernment. So I’m a little troubled that this thing became public, but it has nothing to do with anything that happened with the United Methodist person, it has to do with the investigation.
Rob Nelson: (03:22)
Okay.
Dale Caldwell: (03:22)
And the problem is that the findings are flawed, as you said, and I’d love to talk about it.
Rob Nelson: (03:27)
So then, okay, and that’s more clarification. This is not then a new behavior in your role as pastor. This is someone in the church saying, I saw the report, I have concerns. This is still linked to the same state investigation.
Dale Caldwell: (03:38)
They had that same thing. Nothing new.
State investigation details
Rob Nelson: (03:41)
Nothing new. Okay. What then, in broad strokes, would you say were the core flaws in the report?
Dale Caldwell: (03:50)
It’s very simple. There’s one issue in the report that is the basis of the finding for sexual harassment. That one issue is Staffer 1, they’ve made it public, was in the report 59 times, said I’d said something about, and I don’t use that S word, but young women are looking for young S. Right. I don’t even say that stuff.
Rob Nelson: (04:08)
Right.
Dale Caldwell: (04:08)
In that car, the trooper was two feet away. I was there. I denied saying that emphatically. The trooper said he didn’t hear it, either. But the attorney — and this is really legal abuse — said, well, I discount the trooper’s account. I’m believing Staffer 1. And so one of the things that they’re…
Rob Nelson: (04:29)
Because they said they didn’t find your denial credible.
Dale Caldwell: (04:29)
But then they said that they didn’t take the trooper’s denial of hearing that seriously, either. So this is a guy who was overseeing the state troopers. … If he believed the trooper’s testimony, there is no sexual harassment.
Rob Nelson: (04:53)
Okay.
Dale Caldwell: (04:54)
And that’s a problem I have, is that they picked and chose what they believed and what they didn’t believe, which is really not legally appropriate.
Rob Nelson: (05:03)
You’ve given a lot of interviews since all of this happened. So you’re obviously in a mode now where you are fighting back and pushing back and letting people know you think this was a flawed investigation. I’m just curious, is there any part that you own that you’d say, yes, I should not have done or said this thing? Or is there any part, or is this completely 100 percent?
Dale Caldwell: (05:22)
No, a couple of things that I said. One, I did talk about “executive presence,” and that’s mentioned in the report. One of the realities is I’m an alumni of the Wharton MBA program. They now have a program called Executive Presence and Leadership. Staffer one said that executive presence referred to gender or attractiveness. Nobody else agreed with that. Yet that was in the report. So if you go through the report, one of the other accusations is that I was trying to pick up, if you will, Staffer 1’s friend.
Rob Nelson: (05:53)
Right.
Reasons behind the investigation
Dale Caldwell: (05:53)
But they never interviewed the friend. Yet that’s in the report. So what I’m saying is, and again, I know the governor is not going to change her determination, but I’m just going on this just to really… This could happen to anyone. And that’s what scares me.
Rob Nelson: (06:08)
As you said in another interview, and this struck me for some reason, “people wanted me out. Politics is a nasty game.” Is your bottom line here that you think you’re being politically targeted, and it’s more about politics than about the substance of your alleged behavior?
Dale Caldwell: (06:23)
Because if you look at the report, just as I said, they’re picking Staffer 1’s perspective, even though no one is corroborating.
Rob Nelson: (06:31)
Why do they want you out?
Dale Caldwell: (06:33)
I have no idea…. I’ve had a tremendous eight months.
Rob Nelson: (06:35)
But you say, “For some reason, people wanted me out.”
Dale Caldwell: (06:35)
Yeah.
Rob Nelson: (06:35)
Who and why?
Dale Caldwell: (06:35)
I have no idea. And it’s up to them, to their conscience and so on. What I said in a sermon afterwards about lies as weapons is my goal is simply not to attack anyone or anything, but just to get the truth out. That’s the only reason I’m here, is just to get the facts out.
Rob Nelson: (06:59)
And that was striking to me because I think over the weekend, you stepped down on a Friday and Sunday, you were on the pulpit at that church that you’re talking about a minute ago, and you gave a whole sermon about false accusations. And you said it happens about false accusations. It happens in politics. It happens in government. And yes, it happens in churches.
Dale Caldwell: (07:18)
Yes.
Rob Nelson: (07:19)
I read that differently last night, because I said, well, you added in the end, it happens in churches.
Dale Caldwell: (07:19)
Yes.
Rob Nelson: (07:19)
Did you have a sense that something was going to happen in the church that would put your position as pastor in jeopardy when you said that? Was something bubbling up at the time?
Dale Caldwell: (07:33)
Yeah, nothing was bubbling up at the time, but I’ve seen this before. This is not a new play. And typically, and I’m surprised because this bishop happens to be African American, typically given the history of so many false accusations against African Americans, you would think they would talk to me first.
And that’s one of the big problems here that I have with this whole process, is I wasn’t given a chance to look at the findings and at least make a comment before it went public. Never had a chance, I had a chance to look at it for about an hour, they weren’t looking for any comments or any feedback. And I think we’re all due due process. We are Americans. We’re not Russians. And also initially it went right to an attorney instead of an internal investigation by the Ethics Commission, which is normally what happens with anonymous letter. And so this is why I say I was targeted, because the normal process wasn’t followed.
Rob Nelson: (08:28)
And that’s why I find it so striking that you believe obviously strongly you were targeted. But I don’t hear the same detail about the why and the who.
Dale Caldwell: (08:37)
I can’t. I have no idea. It could be because I’ve been very successful for eight months. That becomes a threat to folks. We traveled 30,000 miles. Our business action center that I oversaw as secretary of state has generated about $400 million for the business community. We had safe elections. The tourism was record numbers. So you look at my record as secretary of state, it’s been very good. And as lieutenant governor, I’ve been in every county multiple times. We put about 30,000 miles.
So sometimes in politics, you’re doing well, it’s sometimes a threat. I don’t think it’s a threat to the governor. I have great respect for the governor. I would say, remember who brought you to the dance. She gave me this incredible opportunity. The eight months were the best professional eight months I’ve ever had. And I’m happy to move on and do other things.
“She’s a good person. She really is a good person.” — Dale Caldwell on Gov. Sherrill
Rob Nelson: (09:09)
Are you angry with her?
Dale Caldwell: (09:23)
No, I’m not. She’s a good person. She really is a good person. And I got into this because … 1.2 million people, households who can’t pay their bills. If we’re able to move them to the middle class, we can reduce property taxes. That has to be the focus of this administration. If I stayed, and I could have stayed, she couldn’t fire me. They’d have to impeach me. And looking at that evidence, I don’t think it would have happened. I don’t think I would have been impeached.
But I didn’t want to be a distraction. This government is never about one individual. Government is about the people of New Jersey. And I took a vow to serve the people of New Jersey. And by resigning, I continue to serve the people of New Jersey. And I’m supporting this administration.
Rob Nelson: (10:51)
So you’re not upset with Governor Sherrill. You called her a good person. And I assume as a fellow Democrat, you support her agenda, what she’s trying to do.
Dale Caldwell: (10:57)
Absolutely.
Rob Nelson: (11:00)
Your own political future … there’s a narrative. People say, oh, well, the governor kicked him out as number two. And then, oh, now the church is looking at something, removed him as pastor. Where there’s that much smoke, there has to be fire. This is obviously in some ways kind of a rehab media tour for you. Do you think it will succeed? And do you have a political future left in Jersey?
Dale Caldwell: (11:23)
I really believe the truth will out. And I would say if I did something wrong, if I had said what I was accused of saying, I would own up to it. But the reality is that even if I had said that, even if those allegations… that doesn’t compare to sexual harassment where someone’s touching someone or other things. And I think that’s what people think, that this sexual harassment has something to do… I mean, there are women who have said things that are offensive. There are men who have said things that are offensive. This is an offensive comment. It was the worst that I’m accused of. And so this was taken to another level, which is why I say I was targeted, because they took something very small and tried to make it very big.
Rob Nelson: (12:03)
And reading the report and the media accounts of things, we live in an age where we’ve seen a lot of powerful men rightfully pay a high price for their behavior. We can talk about Matt Lauer. We can talk about Charlie Rose. We can talk about Weinstein. We can talk about Cosby. We can talk about a whole list of folks from all walks of life. And, obviously, nothing in this report is anywhere in the same galaxy of that behavior. So I think that perspective is important here. But I do want to go a little bit through what the report did say and give you a chance.
Dale Caldwell: (12:36)
Absolutely.
Rob Nelson: (12:36)
And just your 20-second response, too, just so folks can digest it at home. Okay. All this according to the report. You made a romantic advance toward a female staffer’s friend. After that advance was rebuffed, you told the staffer that, quote, “You young women are looking for young sperm.” Your response.
AI and legal counsel
Dale Caldwell: (12:54)
First of all, if I had made an advance to the friend, then that friend would have been in the car when I said that. So that, right? And so the friend wasn’t there. In the report, it says there’s just a trooper, myself, and Staffer 1. So there was no advance made to the staffer’s friend. So this is the kind of thing that there’s legal abuse here. That makes no sense at all. And so also when I was in New Jersey, I had another person that was traveling with me all the time. It would have been four people in the car.
Rob Nelson: (13:22)
And you never made the sperm comment.
Dale Caldwell: (13:23)
No, I never made the sperm… And I never approached the person because if I had, they would have interviewed the person, her friend. Her friend wasn’t even interviewed. So you start looking at the details of this. One of the things that I’m encouraging people to do is really I think AI can make legal reform. So I put it through AI, and it said 59 times, it said, what would your findings be? There was no instance in any of the AIs that said you’d be a finding of sexual harassment.
Rob Nelson: (13:48)
That’s fascinating.
Dale Caldwell: (13:49)
Yeah, everyone should put that through. And I think we can use AI to stop legal abuse.
Rob Nelson: (13:53)
So you AI’d your own report?
Dale Caldwell: (13:55)
From multiple AI platforms.
“I can’t figure out why, other than I’m doing a great job, and I’m a threat.” — Dale Caldwell
Rob Nelson: (13:59)
Okay. And none of them came up with sexual harassment. Did those reports say you did anything wrong?
Dale Caldwell: (14:04)
Yes, I did some things wrong. I did one. I had brought a friend to an event that I was talking about, I told about. I paid $170 for my friend to be at that event. I didn’t know about the other violations until I saw the report. And Staffer 1’s job was to make sure I knew about those things. No one told me about those things until I saw the report. And I was investigated for 133 days, the second highest person in the state of New Jersey, out of my 245 days there. And yet they didn’t give me the courtesy of responding to the report. That’s why I think I’m targeted.
Again, I can’t figure out why, other than I’m doing a great job, and I’m a threat. So you start looking. You start reading the details. What I did do related to a romantic partner, I was at an event. And I talked to someone who’s head of the housing department. They were looking for good people. I said, my girlfriend is doing a great job in one of the offices. Would you like a resume?
Rob Nelson: (14:53)
Your girlfriend is a state employee?
Dale Caldwell: (15:02)
Yes.
Rob Nelson: (15:03)
Okay. I want to continue on this point. Do you think it’s appropriate for the lieutenant governor of New Jersey to have a girlfriend who works for the state?
Dale Caldwell: (15:11)
She was there before I was there. She works for a local housing office. She was there 10 years, long before I was picked as lieutenant governor. So that’s not even…
Rob Nelson: (15:22)
So her state position preceded your time in office.
Dale Caldwell: (15:25)
Oh, yeah. By many years. And was doing a good job. And actually had applied for a promotion. And they made a mistake on it within the department, within civil service. They actually made a mistake. But this person asked for her resume.
Rob Nelson: (15:38)
Okay. The basic matter was you were trying to get your state employee girlfriend a promotion.
Dale Caldwell: (15:42)
No, I wasn’t.
Rob Nelson: (15:42)
And they found an ethical problem.
Dale Caldwell: (15:44)
No, I wasn’t. I was requested to send her resume to this person. And I tried to follow protocol by sending it to someone senior. And in the report it says, “Do as you see fit with the resume.” The resume was never sent on. So my thing is I don’t care if you hire or not. I wasn’t trying to push anything. I was asked for that resume. I sent it to a senior official. But again, being targeted, it says, “As you see fit,” right in the report. There’s nobody trying to push anything. It’s an abuse if you’re trying to get a promotion and try to use your position to get a promotion. You look at this, none of those things. And the resume never even got there. And I didn’t care. It turns out my girlfriend had gotten a job in a private group during this time.
Rob Nelson: (16:28)
Okay.
Dale Caldwell: (16:28)
So it wasn’t even an issue. But it’s in the report.
Rob Nelson: (16:31)
Last thing, briefly. A new poll out does show that nearly 70% support the way Governor Sherrill has been handling this. How do you interpret that for what that could mean for what the public believes about you and this report and how that dovetails with whatever you may or may not do next?
Dale Caldwell: (16:47)
I’m not surprised because most people don’t know about this. So what happens is on Labor Day, someone dropped that LG is being under investigation for inappropriate behavior with women. That’s all they know. But when they start to… There’s no one who’s heard the facts who said, Dale, you’re guilty. So basically the statement… If the state trooper was believed, this is all about believing a state trooper, and if the state trooper was believed, there’s no sexual harassment.
Rob Nelson: (17:16)
You flirted publicly with the idea of legal action. Is that still on the table for you?
Dale Caldwell: (17:19)
I have an attorney, and we’re looking at everything. I won’t rule it out. But right now, my goal is to get the truth out.
Rob Nelson: (17:25)
What would the claim be, though? What would your legal… What would you claim?
Dale Caldwell: (17:28)
There’s a whole bunch of things. People could say harassment. They could say discrimination. They could do all sorts of things. But again, I don’t want to be a distraction to the administration. My sense is that would be distracting.
Rob Nelson: (17:42)
Distracting.
Dale Caldwell: (17:42)
It would be distracting, but we will see. We’ll examine everything, examine the response. But it’s not about me. My life, I wasn’t a politician before this, and maybe I will be down the road. … One of the frustrating things about it, for the first time I was income limited. I couldn’t make more. I couldn’t even be paid by my church.
Rob Nelson: (17:59)
Right.
Dale Caldwell: (18:02)
So now I’m kind of freed to use my Wharton MBA to really help a lot of businesses grow. And so it’s exciting, actually.
Rob Nelson: (18:09)
And do you think you will get your position back at the church?
Dale Caldwell: (18:12)
Yeah, absolutely. Because there’s no evidence of me doing anything inappropriately. And it’s often standard for them to review it. It shouldn’t have been public. And typically for this kind of thing, they never really suspend somebody. They review it while you continue in your pastoral duties.
Rob Nelson: (18:29)
So the suspension was odd and the public nature of it was odd. Why do you think they did it that way then?
Dale Caldwell: (18:34)
I don’t know if it’s a bishop that I don’t… I don’t know. I have some real challenges with what the bishop did.
And one of the things I was accused of was giving business cards. And so the reason I give the business cards is a picture of my dad marching arm in arm with Dr. King and Ralph Abernathy in Boston. And so I look at this as an extension of the civil rights movement. And I said to [former Attorney General Christopher] Porrino when I interviewed with him … I’m here as someone continuing civil rights. I’m not trying to pick anybody up. I don’t need to be an LG to pick someone up. I’m here focused on the most vulnerable. Proverbs 31:8-9, which is to be a voice for the voiceless and speak up for the destitute. And so I want those 1.29 million families who can’t pay their bills to be able to pay their bills. And I’m going to be working on that outside of government. And who knows, I may or may not be back. But right now, I love being in the private sector.
Rob Nelson: (19:26)
As we say in TV, stay tuned.
Dale Caldwell: (19:26)
Yes, we’ll see.
Rob Nelson: (19:26)
Mr. Caldwell, thank you very much. We do appreciate your time.
Dale Caldwell: (19:30)
Thank you.
Rob Nelson: (19:30)
Thank you.
